New gestures

A few news from the OCTGN 2 front!

After the big feedback from alpha 1, I changed the gesture to pan the table. Many people didn’t like the simple click on an empty space and drag. So now you can click anywhere, but you have to press on the space bar first (which is the quite common shortcut to pan in many programs, notably image editing software).

Of course, this is also preparing the way for multiple card selection. It seemed everyone wanted to be able to select multiple cards! I’m going to do that, but I’d like a bit more input on what you intend to do! Since I’m not a user of multiple selection myself, tell me how you use it:

  • Do you like to select cards intersecting your selection rectangle, or cards completely inside the rectangle?
  • Are you using this feature primarily to move cards around?
  • Are you interested in appling cards actions to all selected cards (which may be non-intuitive for some custom script actions, but I suppose it should be possible)? What would be an example of that?

I’ve also changed the gesture to move a card to the bottom of a pile. I am not fan of keyboard modifiers so I try to remove them when I can. I changed from holding Ctrl down (in alpha 1) to a specific zone appearing when you hover the card on the target pile. A picture’s worth a thousand word: 

(The image is clipped in the default WordPress layout, click to see it in full size.)

6 left to go!

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23 Comments on “New gestures”

  1. roblethal Says:

    * Do you like to select cards intersecting your selection rectangle, or cards completely inside the rectangle?

    Intersecting. Requires a smaller rectangle, and is a bit more intuitive, like highlighting files in explorer.

    * Are you using this feature primarily to move cards around?

    I would think so, Yes.

    * Are you interested in appling cards actions to all selected cards (which may be non-intuitive for some custom script actions, but I suppose it should be possible)? What would be an example of that?

    Maybe like send them all to grave, or to hand, or place them all face down/up.

  2. Kempeth Says:

    * Do you like to select cards intersecting your selection rectangle, or cards completely inside the rectangle?
    I think intersecting is slightly easier…
    * Are you using this feature primarily to move cards around?
    Probably yes.
    * Are you interested in appling cards actions to all selected cards (which may be non-intuitive for some custom script actions, but I suppose it should be possible)? What would be an example of that?
    Yes. Probably things like rotate, increase/decrease counters but mostly just moving them…

  3. Kempeth Says:

    * Do you like to select cards intersecting your selection rectangle, or cards completely inside the rectangle?
    I think intersecting is slightly easier…
    * Are you using this feature primarily to move cards around?
    Probably yes.
    * Are you interested in appling cards actions to all selected cards (which may be non-intuitive for some custom script actions, but I suppose it should be possible)? What would be an example of that?
    Yes. Probably things like rotate, increase/decrease counters but mostly just moving them…

  4. boogzie Says:

    * Do you like to select cards intersecting your selection rectangle, or cards completely inside the rectangle?
    – Intersecting is easier for me.

    * Are you using this feature primarily to move cards around?
    – Yes, but like the people before me, I think it would be handy to use it for counters, sending to graveyard, etc.

    Also, I think it might be a good idea to make a ‘add selection’ shortcut. Like you use ctrl in explorer to add a bunch of files to your selection. This way if you want to select, say.. 4 cards, but right in the middle there is another card which you don’t want to select, you don’t have to do the same action twice, selecting 2 cards at a time.

    … But maybe I’m just being lazy.

  5. Aggersborg Says:

    “I’ve also changed the gesture to move a card to the bottom of a pile. I am not fan of keyboard modifiers so I try to remove them when I can. I changed from holding Ctrl down (in alpha 1) to a specific zone appearing when you hover the card on the target pile. A picture’s worth a thousand word”

    – I will start by saying sorry for my bad English 🙂 But do this mean you do not like keyboard shortcuts? I am use to play around with OCTGN, but reasnualy I tryed MWS. After using that a few days and then trying OCTGN again (I will nerver leave OCTGN 🙂 ) I find that the way MWS uses keyshortcuts to almost everything is good. And I like the way that you can thange the power and toughness on a card is nice. I other words I like OCTGN 2 to have as many keyshortcuts as possible – os it is possible to play around with “the mouse way” and “the keyboard way”.


  6. * Do you like to select cards intersecting your selection rectangle, or cards completely inside the rectangle?

    Intersecting.

    * Are you using this feature primarily to move cards around?

    Yes, but also group actions as per 3

    * Are you interested in applying cards actions to all selected cards (which may be non-intuitive for some custom script actions, but I suppose it should be possible)? What would be an example of that?

    Yes, definitely interested in this. As mentioned above, destroying all cards, returning to hand, attacking with them all, would all be very useful if at all possible.

    —-

    Also, Nice job on the moving to bottom of pile thing. I like the idea, and as you say it’s a lot more intuitive than holding down a key.

    How big is the area? Looks to be between 1/4 and 1/3 the height of the card. I would suggest that having the zone be a bit bigger (between 1/3 and 1/2 the height) would make it a bit easier to move the card to the bottom quickly.

    Is it just my imagination, or does the icon get more opaque when you hover over the area? (or is it just the difference in card facing confusing me)

    Having areas appear over the cards like this is not something I had considered before, so well done on solving that problem! Would it be possible to do something similar with other actions?

    e.g. currently you have to hold down a key to play a card from your hand face down. Would it be possible to instead create a ‘zone’ on the card which activates this? (i.e. if I drag the card into play by clicking on this area first, it is placed face down)

  7. jods Says:

    @Aggersborg:
    No, I like keyboard shortcuts and there should be tons of them to help “power gamers” play faster. For example when your mouse is over a markers (e.g. +1/+1 counters in Magic) you can hit your numpad + and – to add remove one of them on the same card.

    What I dislike is undiscoverable features. Would you have guessed that Ctrl let you move a card to the bottom of a pile. I think the only fair answer is no. In the same vein, I am not very happy with the Shift modifier to play a card face down, or to target cards. But I currently have no better idea.

    @Zark:
    I think it covers 30% of the pile. Which is more than enough to be easily reachable. On the other hand I didn’t want to cover too much of the card (e.g. 50%) because the “standard” action is to put on top and I don’t want to get in the way of this action.

    No, it’s not your imagination. It becomes more opaque if your mouse is over it.

    For your suggestion to play face down, I would love to find a better way than holding Shift down. But I can’t figure it out yet. Dragging the card from a special spot is not easy because the card may be partially covered by other cards. And layering icons on top of other cards is just as confusing (I discussed this recently when looking for alternative ways to target. I even tried to implement this idea but I did nothing good).

  8. Koryu Says:

    * Do you like to select cards intersecting your selection rectangle, or cards completely inside the rectangle?
    – Like proposed by many others, intersecting is good, so you can drag just a thin line and select all cards touched by it instead of doing a big rectangle…

    * Are you using this feature primarily to move cards around?
    – I use it primarily to tap lands and attack, I guess. Also sending cards to graveyard is common. Also moving around the land cards, that they don’t lie in the way…

    * Are you interested in appling cards actions to all selected cards (which may be non-intuitive for some custom script actions, but I suppose it should be possible)? What would be an example of that?
    – Being able to do a double-click on the selected cards, so they all tap would be cool, because I use it all the time… but it would interfere with the selecting, wouldn’t it? I’m pretty old-fashioned with OCTGN, because I got used to the style of playing and I think there’s nothing wrong with the selection options of the first OCTGN. Except that it doesn’t deselect a group, if you click on a card not in the group, so double-click on a card outside of the group taps the card and all the cards in the group. that leads to strange interactions sometimes (like attacking with your lands…). But maybe it’s just me having a strange playing style… :b

  9. Mal Says:

    My favorite method for selection/functions would be this:

    Left click + release = select
    Ctrl + left click + release = select another
    Left click + drag + release = select multiple

    Right click + release (on selection) = open function menu for selection
    Right click + drag + release = move
    Ctrl + Right click = primary function (probably tap)

    function menu would be things like tap, target, etc, and would list the hotkey for it to the right like this:

    Tap CTRL+Right Click
    Target T + Right Click
    Counter C + Right Click

    That way you could use keyboard for speed or the menu for simplicity and reference of the hotkeys.

  10. Mal Says:

    It got rid of my extra spaces I used for formatting the function menu example. Damn.

  11. LTG Says:

    * Do you like to select cards intersecting your selection rectangle, or cards completely inside the rectangle?
    Intersecting
    * Are you using this feature primarily to move cards around?
    …Maybe? Moving, select all to attack, tap these 6, flip those 4 upside down, reorganize the cards… all things that are more multi-selection-worthy
    * Are you interested in appling cards actions to all selected cards (which may be non-intuitive for some custom script actions, but I suppose it should be possible)? What would be an example of that?
    Yes! A general ‘die’ button, ‘effect’ from that, ‘attack’ with these two, ‘target’ these 3, return those 5 to hand, stupid capsize… but not too many.
    However, it could be cool to have plugins for unique effects: Remove from game, return at end of turn. Put all on top/bottom of library. Add/remove counters to all selected. Put a note/tag on all selected (i.e. Aurification: Gold counter). You can add these to your personal program-right-klik-menu for use with your personal deck, but they would be recognized by all players (leading to the obvious Cool-howd-u-do-dat?)

    I agree with Mal: use the universal RTS controls (by universal, obviously I mean starcraft). CTRL Klik to add to selected, SHFT Klik to remove from selected queue.

    Jods, I am totally down with the ‘power gamer’ idea. I suppose in a perfect world, OCTGN players would have 10 defined spaces right above their player window (or, if they are on top, just below… or both)so they could hot key cards into spaces 1-0 (or Q-P… or both), and those cards could be selected with the press of those keys, or stacked solitaire-style. Then again, we have a space problem looming… especially if your target max was 16+ players on the ‘table’

  12. dc7k Says:

    * Do you like to select cards intersecting your selection rectangle, or cards completely inside the rectangle?

    Intersecting? What does that word mean? 😛

    * Are you using this feature primarily to move cards around?

    Yes. But allso to tap and untap. Especialy lands.

    * Are you interested in appling cards actions to all selected cards (which may be non-intuitive for some custom script actions, but I suppose it should be possible)? What would be an example of that?

    Qouting the guy above:
    “I agree with Mal: use the universal RTS controls (by universal, obviously I mean starcraft). CTRL Klik to add to selected, SHFT Klik to remove from selected queue.”

    But for those who prefer the drop selection i think it would be best to have an option to select what method is preferable as I see that there will be quite near an equal amount of people to like the two different selection methods.

  13. Jods in God Says:

    Sweet, only six left to go!!!

    jods, you clearly have a custom mtg module for the program installed and up and running, and all the mtg card pics included in a format that the program supports.

    Any chance that “someone” 😉 will be kind enough to release an all in one package of the beta on a torrent site like piratebay.org prepackaged with both the mtg module, the mtg card pics in the correct format, and possibly even the net framework update?

    You don’t have to answer. Don’t answer. All I know is I will be doing a search for “octgn 2.0 beta” 😉 on piratebay within a week after the beta is released. I suggest that others do the same.

  14. Jods in God Says:

    sorry I meant “octgn 2.0 alpha” I know the beta is still a while away

  15. Mike Says:

    * Do you like to select cards intersecting your selection rectangle, or cards completely inside the rectangle?

    Intersecting. Completely inside selection is combersome

    * Are you using this feature primarily to move cards around?

    Yes but also common actions (Tapping, untapping, etc.)

    * Are you interested in applying cards actions to all selected cards (which may be non-intuitive for some custom script actions, but I suppose it should be possible)? What would be an example of that?

    To continue to quote chain:

    I agree with Mal: use the universal RTS controls (by universal, obviously I mean starcraft). CTRL Klik to add to selected, SHFT Klik to remove from selected queue.”

    But for those who prefer the drop selection i think it would be best to have an option to select what method is preferable as I see that there will be quite near an equal amount of people to like the two different selection methods.”

  16. Kamal Says:

    I would like to select card that are intersecting the selection rectangle, this make the thing faster.

    I would select the cards to move them, tap them, sacrifice them, etc, so a context menu for the selected cards would be nice. And to multiple targeting other cards, with a bunch of my tasty 8/8 mosnter creatures :MUAHAHA:

    That’s it, hope you think bout it.

    Of course, I LOVE OCTGN 2, I just can’t wait for the Unlocked version to play one of my card projects.

    About targeting, I posted this before, but I’ll do it again. Why don’t you just use Right-click +drag+drop for targeting?

    I mean, you could use Right-click+realease to open the context menu… then Right-click +drag+drop to target a card. It’s quite simple I think.

    MWS use that method, works just fine and it’s easy to discover.

    (N’ again, sorry about my English, I’m Chilean :D)

  17. Kamal Says:

    As far as I know JODS (or GOD), hates keyboard hotkeys D:!

    D: that’s it haha

  18. Kamal Says:

    Hmmm TRIPLE POST, Ownage…

    Just one thing to add:

    When you load a deck; ok, it gets you the 30 cards and the leader in your hand, but if you load the deck again, or other deck, you get now 60 cards and 2 leaders… I mean, the other 30 cards are added to your draw pile, instead of overwrite.

    Would be better, if a deck has been already loaded and you try to load again, OCTGN2 asks you to restart the game if the opponents agree. as it’s done in MWS…

    If someone already posted this, sorry D:!

    (again and again, sorry for my English, I should set my name as “Kamal [Sorry bout my English] asdasd”)

  19. jods Says:

    @Kamal:
    The idea of right-click drag to target was suggested before. The problem is that OCTGN has two kind of “targetting”. The arrow (by dragging from one card to the other) and the single card target (simply by clicking on a card). If the right button was used to target it would be impossible to distinguish a right-click = single target from a right-click = context menu.
    Maybe the solution would be to get rid of the context menu somehow…

    I don’t hate keyboard shortcuts, quite the opposite actually. But I hate “secret” functionnality. Noone reads user guides so the features should be obvious to the average user. Knowing that Ctrl+Drag would put a card at the bottom of a pile is not discoverable. On the other hand, adding keyboard shortcuts for common actions is a good idea (as long as there exist a discoverable alternative to the shortcut. If the actual keyboard shortcut is visible in the GUI it’s even better).

    The “Reset” function already was in alpha 1. Look into the “File” (I should find a better name) menu. (BTW it does more than unloading your deck. E.g. it also resets the turns number.)
    Suggesting a reset when someone tries to load a second deck does not add much. In fact, sometimes you maybe could use the load function to create modular decks… You may be play-testing some decks and want to switch some parts… Or you may want to use different sideboards… whatever. It’s maybe not the most useful feature but it’s there and removing it would not be any better.

  20. Kamal [sorry about my english] Says:

    Okay…

    Didn’t get the “simple targetting” thing, but… okay 😦

    Anyway, that “load for sideboard cards”, REALLY GOOD IDEA!
    just didn’t think about that.

    But, reset feature should ask the opponent before it’s done, ’cause it erase all cards in play, and even the deck of the opponent, wich is too invasive.

    OR

    Maybe you could have 2 features there, “reset” and “new game”, so “new game” asks the opponent(s) if he (they) agree to start a new game, then unload all decks and cards in game.
    And reset should be just “personal”. i.e. if you loaded a wrong deck or side board, and you press reset, it would only reset your deck, not your opponent’s deck.
    And it would not reset turns.

    🙂 waiting for the next version 😀 😀 😀

  21. jods Says:

    You can see “single target” in action in this old post:
    https://octgndev.wordpress.com/2007/09/09/shroud-not/

  22. david Says:

    HI,

    all this looks nice but where can I get that new OCTGN program? Is there already a download link ?

    greetings

    david

  23. jods Says:

    There currently is only one public binary called “alpha 1” and released end 2007 (look at older posts in this blog).
    It is *very* outdated by the current build but it is private.

    The next public build will be “alpha 2” expected this summer. Recently I’ve been including a feature countdown in my posts. I have a list of features I want to implement before releasing alpha 2. Today the count is at 5 features left to code.


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